vram1974: I’ll be brief(er). Thanks for your comments, and those of others. It appears that many are glimpsing this thread, and perhaps even reading it, even if not contributing to the debate.

For practical purposes there have never been belay bolts on Penny Lane. In 1988-89 only there were belay bolts/chains just below the top. For a few years in the late 1990s there was a single bolt/directional part-way across from the top/usual belay stance to the rappel anchors. It wasn’t much use for belaying, and no use for rappelling. I’ve climbed the route every year since 1978, and there were no bolts at or near the top in 2002.

It sounds like your friend was able to safely protect the lead, that is place anchors good for a downward and outward force. Did she/he run out of gear that would have allowed placement of belay anchors? How did he/she get back to the ground, to allow you to lead?

I’m glad you mention the example of Mt. Nemo, where there are overriding considerations (protection of very old trees) that justify otherwise unneeded fixed belay anchors.

As mentioned, this is the sort of information that should be included in guidebooks.

Anders

Well, thank you.

The FAist gets to decide if bolts are allowed at the top of a route (no offense Anders)

No offence taken. The person who creates a route doesn’t own it, although a little parental pride is perhaps tolerable. It is the climbing community as a whole that owns a route, and even at that we share it with its natural inhabitants, and often other humans who may have an interest in the place.

The climbing community has to figure these matters out for itself. Which is the point of the exercise. Your original post was very much in that spirit - you had a concern, you expressed it, and there’s a discussion of it going on. (Although it’s far from inclusive of all those who might be interested. Our immediate circle - of friends, on an on-line forum, from the gym, whatever - rarely represents the community.)

If we can’t figure out these challenges ourselves, in a reasonably democratic and open manner, then sooner or later someone else will do it for us.

It’s common sense and good manners for anyone contemplating substantive change to an existing route to not only first discuss it within our community, but also to notify (if possible) those who created the route. Climbs can be works of art, or poetry, and it seems polite to let the creator know what’s planned before improving them. The creator may have perspectives and reasons that aren’t apparent.

At one time, most Squamish climbers got together regularly, while climbing, at the Ivanhoe, around fires at Leavenworth, and in Camp 4. The debates of the Smoke Bluffs Morals and Ethics Committee were quite energetic, but did allow us a way, as a community, to work out issues. That’s no longer possible, and so substitutes, such as this forum, must evolve.

Glad you brought up the subject, and perhaps now we’ll hear some other perspectives.

Anders

alright that decides it….
because there is a bomber gear anchor at the top, I’ll be chopping the following stations tomorrow:
Base of the pillar
Top of the sword
top pitch 1 Daily planet,
I’m gonna head over to Freeway, chop a bunch there
drop down to overly hanging out, chop chop
exasperator CHOP
then I’ll see if I have time for more.  8:00 am grandwall pking lot if you want to help.

After all they have great gear anchors, and hey, it’ll prevent too many people from climbing them.

but…

shouldn’t we be promoting climbing?

So far the only argument I’ve heard is:

1. We don’t need bolts at the top because we’d rather have an inconvenient gear belay that requires the second to come up too, and also prevents newbies from top rope polishing it so that we can preserve a climb that is just like 6,000,000 other routes in British Columbia that already do have anchors.

Anyone have another argument?

Why is it when someone moves here from Ontario the first thing they do is complain how we arent like Ontario and suggest ways we could be more like Ontario?

Here’s a suggestion, take your Blenz outlets and your Barenaked Ladies and your Shania Twain and your bolted anchors next to solid gear placements, and leave them in cottage country where they belong.