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will stanhope
Member
Posts: 22
will stanhope
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 8, 2007, 00:27

I’ve never climbed at Lake Louise, climbed Wicked Gravity, tried the Path or climbed any sort of quartzite of any type, anywhere.  Some might say I don’t have a leg to stand on, and they might be right.

All I can say is this: Sonnie did something bold and cool and progressive.  How many times do we go to the same old crags, do the same old routes and do the same old thing.  Boring.  It’s exciting to see someone take things to the next level, get psyched on a long standing project and send the whole shebang in one go, bottom to top.  It gets me psyched, and if you have a pulse, it should get you psyched as well.

So get excited: coil the rope, charge the drill or rack up the rps- it doesn’t really matter.  Get riled up and dream big.  THAT is what matters- not the aimless ethical dickering that leads nowhere.

Will

zak mcgurk
Member
Posts: 1
zak mcgurk
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 8, 2007, 14:48

Instead of arguing over and criticizing Sonnie for what he did, you guys should be inspired that there are Canadian climbers such as Sonnie or Sean McColl at the forefront of climbing raising the standard for Canadians. By chopping the bolts Sonnie has opened a another world class routed and raised the bar for not only climbers within Canada, but climbers around the world. The Path is another world class route in the Rockies and I don’t know about you guys, but I would definitely like to see some of the worlds best come out and try it!

Zak McGurk

btc
Member
Posts: 64
Mike
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 8, 2007, 16:19

For All You non-believers!
http://sonnietrotter.com/roadlife.php

Like he said… its just climbing!

Mike Shannon, Owner
Beyond The Crux Climbing Gym Inc.
Kelowna, BC
http://www.beyondthecrux.com
(250) 860-7325 (PEAK)

greggor
Member
Posts: 2
greggor
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 8, 2007, 21:47

Okay, I read your post Sonny but I have a question for you. If you toproped or pre inspected the route and felt that their was enough gear for this to be a gear climb and not a run out face climb that you want to do on gear, why didnt you just start the climb ground up. Why top rope it until you have it dialed and then redpoint a gear route. Personally if one wants to argue a gear climb over a sport climb then one should be attempting the route ground up. If you are headpointing the route, its hard to argue the merit of a gear route. Again I dont see the issue with leaving the bolts in place and then sending it sans bolts. This isn’t gritstone and if you felt this was a gear climb, I think it shouldn’t be rehearsed on toprope. It should be ground up!

It’s an amazing accomplishment, and really this discussion is silly, but it’s an interesting situation.

And so what about the top down bolted x or r rated sport climbs at acephale? Is this an acceptable practice. Why not rebolt the route and make it safe. Why do things have to be dangerous for the sake of being dangerous. Does it make us feel like bigger men. There are and is enough forms of dangerous climbing in the world and I think if you want to add to it, then do it properly, ground up. If you want to pre inspect, rehearse and then bolt or redpoint a route and leave it r or x you are trying way too hard.

 

just my thoughts….

harihari
Member
Posts: 305
chris
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 9, 2007, 00:42

Wall Crawler–

The route has some marginal gear and serious runouts.  We might say his style was headpointing, a common tactic used by the Brits (etc) on their desperate grit routes.  Toprope it, then lead it on whatever gear is there.  The sheer danger and desperation of the send makes up for the top-roping aspect.

chris stolz

Watch an 18-pitch free route go up at
http://gumbiesoncrack.blogspot.com

darren
Member
Posts: 1
darren
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 9, 2007, 04:45

The bolts were rigging/work bolts that Karl Kraus drilled over 10 years ago, no?

It could be pretty cool if Sonny retro-bolted the line in the same sense of history as Wicked Gravity which was first climbed in a very bold style and then rigged up for the masses after the fact.

Congrats to Mr.Trotter!

peter-1
Member
Posts: 12
peter-1
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 9, 2007, 09:07

Some interesting points he made on that link above, and mostly all valid ones too I feel; I couldn’t argue with any of it, especially this part referring to this site I believe:

Although I do appreciate the comments (all of them) I
still find it amazing that people want to express
their opinions about a particular line they likely
know very little about.

Unfortunately, it happens alot, especially on this site.  People would be better to not post anything, unless it is totally accurate, and holds alot of truth.  Instead, people who know little, or don’t know someone will imply that they do, and consequently make up all sorts of nonsense about them; or they post false information about themselves, maybe to make themselves look good, but instead it tends to make them look foolish.

harihari
Member
Posts: 305
chris
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 9, 2007, 11:09

Jenny– great post.  But I have some questions.

a) You seem to imply that headpoint routes are a waste of time in north america.  IE since few people do it, why not just throw bolts on there?  Part of me agrees with this and part of me doesn’t.  I probably won’t ever climb 14+ or E9 or whatever trad, and I love sport climbing, but on the other hand, the value of something it seems to me is not dependent on how many people are into it.  EG In Squamish, there are lots of folks who would like to add bolts to some of the friction classics cos they have huge runouts.  But leaving them preserves an important experience for those who want to work for it and a historical fact.  So…are you suggesting that numbers shoudl run the show regarding elite routes?

b) Are you perhaps mischaracterising headpoint route sending a bit?  While it is true that headpointing is a bastard climbing child, the extreme risk and focus which are part of the experience make it an entirely unique thing.  It’s nto sport climbing, and it’s nto on-sight trad climbing.  Seb Grieve for example has talked about the meditative timelessness of grit sends.  While obviously 90% of climbers are going to be quite reluctant to push the boat out that far, the existence of headpoint routes is important for the 10% who do, because, in the long run, it is the avante-garde, so to speak, who change things for the rest of us. 

In the early 1960s, Fred Becky aid 5.9 was the limit, period, and 7 years later 11c would be climbed (on gear– Crack of Doom at City of Rocks) and then by the mid’70s 5.13 on gear!  (The Phoenix in Yosemite 5.13, done by Ray Jardine if I am not mistaken).  The same Ray Jardine who chipped away on the Nose due to lack of faith in his fellow climbers!

chris stolz

Watch an 18-pitch free route go up at
http://gumbiesoncrack.blogspot.com

jenny
Member
Posts: 46
jenny
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 9, 2007, 17:50

Headpointing came about in the UK because of the strict anti-bolting ethic on grit and the UK mountain crags. The notion of no-bolts evolved during a time when adventure and traditional climbing were the only climbing options available. With a seemingly endless number of obvious gear routes, the no-bolts ethic seemed like a good idea as it preserved the natural lines and promoted the adventure spirit prominent at the time. Fast-forward a few decades. Suddenly all the obvious gear lines have been done and all that is left are the blank faces between the real gear routes. In North America this period coincided with the introduction of sport climbing tactics borrowed from Europe and the evolution of sport climbing. In the UK however, dogma prevented the use of bolts and the only option available to many climbers was rehearsing the remaining lines on top-rope, finding the gear on rappel and after extensive practice leading the route. Eventually climbers in the UK realized these tactics were dissimilar to traditional gear climbing and the term headpointing was devised to distinguish this climbing style from traditional ground up gear routes. In the UK headpointing allowed for new route activity to continue while preserving a no-bolt ethic. In North America, we were somewhat more open-minded than our UK friends. After a brief bolting war period in the late 80s and early 90s, things settled down with almost everyone agreeing that obvious crack lines should be left as traditional gear ascents while blank featureless faces are fair game for bolts and top-down tactics.

This approach had two significant benefits. First, it served the needs two very different climbing user groups by preserving ground-up traditional gear climbing while allowing for bolted routes. Secondly and more importantly, it maximized the use of a finite resource - the rock. Only a certain type of rock is ideal for ground up traditional climbing. The ethic in North America of not bolting cracks preserves this limited rock feature. Sport climbing also requires a specific rock type (primarily featureless faces lacking in obvious protection). Unfortunately, headpointing takes these sections of stone and wastes them on a climbing style that is not understood or accepted in North America. To be clear, i am not talking about difficult crack lines that are rehearsed before being redpointed (eg. Cobra Crack, La Zebree.) Although these routes were rehearsed before being successfully redpointed, they can eventually be climbed in the ground-up onsight style prized in North America. These routes are difficult but the lines do not require headpoint tactics to find the holds, unlock the movement and figure out the gear. Headpoint routes attempt to impose traditional protection practices on routes lacking substantial gear and obvious movement by employing extensive sport climbing tactics such as top rope rehearsal, figuring the gear on top rope and route finding on tope rope. The final product is some bastard child of traditional and sport climbing contributing little to most existing North American crags.

With climbing maturing as a sport, first ascentionists need to consider what their routes add to an area. Just as bolting a crack line removes the opportunity for someone to experience traditional climbing, headpointing in North America eliminates what could be a significant sport line.

Sonnie is a very talented climber with an incredible tick-list of hard climbs.
Is the The Path a difficult route?
Absolutely.
Does it add to the local climbing scene?
I don’t know.

I am however enjoying this debate.

trent
Member
Posts: 170
Trent
Post Re: Sonnie Trotter - the Path
on: September 10, 2007, 18:39

Ironically, I wasn’t being sarcastic.  If climbing is evolving in that direction (and the majority of people on this site seem to be in favour of ‘the better ethical direction’), why not remove the bolts from climbs like Wicked Gravity (and perhaps another 20 or so of the routes at BOTL)?

I’m not advocating it, just thinking out loud…

After all, the rock at BOTL is pretty bomber.

One more thought - I wonder if M. Trotter used the original bolts to inspect the route?  After all, it diagonals a fair bit, and without aiding the line (or placing gear on rappel to use as directionals) it would be hard to even inspect the line for an eventual headpoint.  Maybe…

Just a thought.  Maybe BOTL is ready for a sea change - from sport climbing area to bastion of trad climbing activity?

Anyhows, this is an interesting debate.  Congrats to Sonnie for the send - it looked like a cool route on the video.

T.

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