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trad daddy
Member
Posts: 37
trad daddy
Post Re: OAC bolts
on: December 9, 2007, 06:33

Perhaps its because you haven’t climbed at/ or are unfamiliar with the character of the climbing at Bon Echo - but you can’t compare ‘the Joke’ (or any other route on the crag for that matter) to routes on the Apron in Squamish.  Haven’t climbed Unfinished Symphony for about ten years now (I think technically we climbed the hybrid Dream Symphony) but I do recall that it was fairly challenging and was happy that it worked out that my partner lead a couple of the cruxier pitches!  In any case I remember the rock being compact and devoid of many natural features (typical of the harder slab routes on the apron) - basically climbing up blank imaginary hold sections between horizontal breaks.  The climbing was/ is very much dependant on fixed gear (on the upper pitches anyway) because as stated, the runouts would be really damned long on absurdly marginal friction climbing - which in itself is a headtrip! 

The climbing at Bon Echo tends to follow natural lines that typically rise from right to left.  The rock is metamorphised granite that is compact and tends not to offer up too much in the way of obvious cracks but rather sparse and intermitent fractures that take smaller gear.  While not always obvious or easy - the gear is there if you know your craft.  This is possibly one of the more rewarding aspects to the climbing at Bon Echo.  Basically, climbing there - even at what is today considered a moderate grade of 5.9, requires (required) a combination of skill and nerve.  Again, the route was put up by John Turner in 1961 from the bottom up using pins not because they were planned to be left there as fixed gear, but rather because that’s all that was available for protection at the time.  The fact that the pins are still there should serve as a reminder of that bygone era - take pause, reflect, inspect and detrmine if the pins are worth clipping.  Most aren’t worth clipping as pro (although they may slow you down if it came down to it) so just look around and you’ll find all kinds of other options given the variety of advanced gear that the climbers of today have the luxury of having on their racks…
This recent bastardization takes away from the character and experience that used to be had on the route.  Adding bolts to the line is akin to chipping it down to a lower level.  The route had seen dozens of repeat ascents over the years and there was nothing unsafe about the route if you knew how to find and place gear and were solid at the grade.

keep on jammin’

mfb
Member
Posts: 21
mfb
Post Re: OAC bolts
on: December 10, 2007, 00:39

PJF is working for the man and the man is suppressing his right to voice his own opinion.

I guess that would mean that I am representing the man.  No one has suppressed anything that PJF has posted on this BB.  We at the OAC try our best to represent the climbing community as a whole.  In this particular case, the individuals who completed the work on The Joke, sought input from both the first and second ascentionist as well as input from the park.  This was not a unilateral act by the OAC but rather an attempt made by multiple parties to make this route accessible again.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I think a BB is a great place to voice that opinion.  But if anyone wishes to discuss this, or any other access-related issue further please do not hesitate to contact us through the OAC website.

Adam Connor

Co-Chair Ontario Access Coalition

http://www.ontarioaccesscoalition.com

slopey
Member
Posts: 156
pete
Post Re: OAC bolts
on: December 10, 2007, 07:17

we sure are an elitest bunch, aren’t we?

_____________________

check your head.

rock scaling = yes.

dave
Member
Posts: 13
dave
Post Re: OAC bolts
on: December 10, 2007, 13:06

where are pjf’s posts? I thought he was defining the OAC’s position here?

climber4christ
Member
Posts: 3
climber4christ
Post Re: Mad Bolters vs Tradition
on: December 11, 2007, 03:05

Gosh, Flashy, them bolters and the OAC have it tough. they want to preserve the legacy of local trad climbing, they really do, but first John Turner insists that they go bolt the Joke- they humm and hah, try to resist- now juts to completely ruin their day, the rangers twist their arm to get them to bolt the damn Joke and save their asses from a liability suit. Just so long they didn’t just do it because its a good line but they were too chicken but felt entitled anyway. Andru, bolts were in climbing in the 20s and the Joke would be a good place to drill on lead. Turner chose not to use bolts

slopey
Member
Posts: 156
pete
Post Re: Mad Bolters vs Tradition
on: December 11, 2007, 09:05

Andru makes a very good point.

answer one simple question:  Did you clip the pitons?

if there are a boatload of good placements around the piton, then i disagree with the bolts, if not, and the piton was the only source of pro to keep the route safe, then why is is SO wrong to replace the piton with a piece of pro that will keep the route safe?

stop generalising to the entire trad world - there are too many variables - and talk about the route in question.

_____________________

check your head.

rock scaling = yes.

sark astiq
Member
Posts: 252
sark astiq
Post Re: Mad Bolters vs Tradition
on: December 11, 2007, 12:01

I’d be OK with it if they had, say, bolted Stephen Harper to the rock and left him there.

dave
Member
Posts: 13
dave
Post Mad Bolters vs Tradition
on: December 11, 2007, 12:53

Adam, the OAC is showing either a lack of understanding of style and history or a level of cynicism about the fact that a climb done dozens of times has been treated in a way proscribed by organizations with actual global climbing mandates like the UIAA (the oac although well-intentioned, represents the toronto section of the acc, about 150 people, plus a few volunteers. Whatever else the mad bolters did to the Joke, they added two bolts where the only people who had done the route before do not recall anything but the runouts that gave the route character. Trad climbs are a limited resource in Ontario and should be preserved. It is double speak to say that you’re preserving the trad climbing by adding protection bolts. If you get away with this, the next step will be the acc preserving the traditional climbing on Fearless Warrior, Knight of Faith and other local monuments with a hilti drill because they have a few members who are too frightened to do them in their present form but lack the humility to leave these great climbs alone. But they should remember what happened to Resplendance at Old Baldy.

trad daddy
Member
Posts: 37
trad daddy
Post Re: Mad Bolters vs Tradition
on: December 11, 2007, 15:19

Man - I think it’s awesome that there are so many smack talkers on here that just talk out their ass with absolutely no first hand knowledge of the situation…
As mentioned numerous times by various posters (who have actually climbed the route) - this is not some kind of death route - it is a natural line that was put up back in the day and was well ahead of its time in terms of difficulty and boldness - the route is 5.9R - and has seen dozens of ascents without any incident.  There is infact plenty of gear to be had on the Joke - sure there are a few blank sections that might have a relative degree of run out - hence the R rating.  The routes long history coupled with its reputation as a bold line are common knowledge and give the route its classic status.  As such, it its a route that most climbers aspire to climb in its original and historic state - in order to have an experience that is unique to that climb and that climb alone - that is the rite of passage.  Not getting up the thing by any means necessary.  Not everything has to be climbed by everyone.  There are plenty of more moderate routes that afford much easier gear/ protection placements.  WTF is wrong with stepping up to a route’s challenges?  If you’re not up to it - keep on paddling to the next line that you think you might be up to.  Go sport climbing.  Find someone to lead it for you.  But for fuck sakes leave it alone for others to enjoy the experience that the line has offered to the numerous climbers who have stepped up to the line in the past and for those who aspire to do so in the future. 
No one should be on a traditional climb where they are dependant on fixed protection to make a safe ascent.  Pins are relics of a bygone era that need to be inspected for their worthiness and then a judgement should be made as to the integrity of the pins - if you haven’t climbed the route - i’ll save you from guessing - yes the pins are 45+ yrs old - and no you shouldn’t rely on them to save your ass - that’s why you’ve got that shiney state of the art rack clipped on to your harness.  Again - there is pro to be had on this route!  No it’s not always easy and straight forward - but neither is climbing, which I think everyone can agree is one of the challenges that we all enjoy about it.  Turner pounded those pins into crack/ seam features ’cause that was the common practice of the day and it was one of his few and limited options.  Do you actually think for one second that he was concerning himself with fixed gear in order to tame the experience for future climbers?  He was up there having an excellent adventure placing the gear that he had where he could and climbing thru sections of rock where he couldn’t get any gear.  This is not a sport climb.  It is not even a mixed route.  This is a traditional line that has a few old pins that should be ignored in favor of any of the numerous other natural gear options that can be found on the line.  Don’t feel up to that - don’t climb it.  The actions of the individual(s) who bolted the Joke were self-serving because they were no longer up to the challenges of the climb - they reduced it to their level.

Andru and Sloppy - so you figure pins should be replaced by bolts cause they might pull and lead to liability issues as a result of failure?  Well by that mentality - bolt everything then!  I’ve seen lots of gumbies quaking their way up ground that they should not have been on to begin with, not so much for the ability/ inability to climb the route - but for their inability to climb the route safely.  Just cause you’ve got the latest and greatest gear from MEC, doesn’t mean you know how to place it properly and get up a route safely.  I’ve seen plenty of punters who’s gear has pulled or blown out due to improper placement, lucky to be alive cause something else actually held.  I’ve witnessed this in places like Squamish no less, where cracks swallow (or at least should) whatever gear is thrown at them.  These people should have never been on the route to begin with becuase they weren’t up to the task of making a safe ascent.

Let’s just bolt everything into submission, taking away any sense of adventure or enjoyment that might otherwise be had because traditional climber’s are outnumbered by the hordes of gym bred, latte sipping, cell phone talking climbers who absolutely must get up everything and anything the safest and easiest way possible.  Make it safe for everyone to climb everything! 
And maybe if it’s too hard to get up, we can just make some of the holds bigger - ’cause then even more people could enjoy the route…

keep on jammin’

davezuly
Member
Posts: 3
Dave
Post Re: Mad Bolters vs Tradition
on: December 11, 2007, 16:27

I disagree:

I enjoy a good clip-up just as much as the next, but replacing pin scars with bolts on a classic line is crazy. We are setting a bad precedence.

The point of traditional routes is to place your own gear. If you were a trad climber you would appreciate the aspect of creative and hard to place protection. Were not talking about just one route here but the future of traditional climbing. I guess the next step is for climbers to begin placing botls on all trad lines that are difficult to protect. Many traditional routes at Red Rocks have been subject to this type of mentality and I think it sucks.

When deciding to climb a route at a challenging level one must take into consideration the risks involved. A place like Bon Echo is truly magical because of the history and classicness of the routes there. I could suggest some easy to protect trad routes if that’s what your after. In my opinion, the answer is not to go refitting routes like the Joke with sport bolts but for climbers to choose their projects wisely.

If safety is such a concern, what will we do about all the loose rock that creates a hazard for climbers at Bon Echo? There are safer places to learn how to trad climb.

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