I have to agree with the Dave’s.  The posting on the OAC says “The intent, was to make The Joke climbable again, as many of the pitons had become rusty, loose and dangerous”. The Joke was still climbable in its original form for many to enjoy. Did anyone even clip those old pins?  Our province is filled with an abundance of great areas that provide both safe sport and traditional climbing.  It saddens me to see that an organization such as the OAC feels it is important to bolt these “classic” lines for the masses. Many climbers enjoy trad climbing for the extra challenge of placing technical gear and dealing with the mental stress of the situation. The Joke and many other routes like it give us this feeling of excitement and help us to understand and respect the history of our sport. These classics are few and far between. I agree with placing bolts to protect trees but adding bolts to a route that has seen many sends is not ethical. If the OAC wants to make the sport safer there are plenty of old sport lines that could use a tune-up. If climbers want to climb in a safer environment there are many other routes and crags to choose from. I feel that a big attraction to the Bon Echo area is the additional risks and the adventuresome nature of the climbing there.  It would be a shame if the new precedence becomes to place bolts where the protection is difficult on all established traditional lines.  

I’ll buy a twofour.  Dave, If what you say is true, then a travesty has occurred.  Shame on you ACC or OAC (or whoever it was that bolted it).  Climbs should never be lowered to accomodate your lack of ability!

Anyone mind if I bolt the bottom of SELOTL?  I don’t mind the top runout…I am guessing Halton would have some words about this.

Hey Slopey - I’m all for an intelligent discussion - the soapbox comes out (you’ve hogged it long enough, non? when counter argumentative points are made out of ignorance and a lack of first hand knowledge of the given situation…
The major and fundamental difference here is that this is a ground up, historically significant and proud traditional climb that has been climbed numerous times over without incident.  We’re not talking about someone who did a half as job of fixing gear on rappel with the intention of leaving the gear fixed for others to climb on - in 1961 - pins were your rack. 
I think buddysnack asked if the climb was safer back then than it is today.  The answer is no.  As dave mentions, Turner took the big ride into the lake and broke a leg!  Had he had some of today’s gear (mainly thin/ small stoppers) he could have climbed the route in a much safer manner as is (was) experienced by todays climbers.  Again, this route does have good and reasonable gear with a few (former) runout sections - kinda like you might expect on a classic 5.9R.
The issue here is that the retrobolting was self-serving to a few climbers that have fallen out of their prime and are no longer up to the challenges of a long standing, proud and historic route.  They did nothing for the good of the greater climbing community.
The bit about ‘bolting everything’ is obviously a little over the top - but self serving actions like the one under discussion are what lead us down the slippery slope … 
OK - I’m done with the soapbox - who’s next …

Smithers - fetch me my loafers (they’re former gophers you know).

Question - was the route safer 45 years ago because it had brand new Pitons?  Just for a minute, forget about advances in climbing gear.  If you bailed off the crux of the route, did you have a better chance of having the gear hold back then than now?  (i.e has the route become more dangerous)

This is unquestionably a difficult issue.  Having climbed in southern Ontario for the past 15 years, I have watched many of old in situ pitons get worse and worse, wondering should someone replace those, and if so, with what?  While many trad routes have become safer over the years with the advent of new forms of climbing protection (although former Alien owners may choose to disagree), others have become more dangerous because the original protection has deteriorated from its original state.  Lets look at specific examples to illustrate my point.

Take Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands (5.10d) at Buffalo Crag.  When I started climbing, the start of the route was protected by 2 pins.  The last time I was at Buffalo, there was only 1 pin left, and I bet it is dubious at best.  I remember following a good friend up that route, who happened to fall on one of the original fixed pins (which is no longer there).  If you have ever done the route, you know the start is tenuous.  Because of the deterioration of the fixed protection, SELOTL has become a much more dangerous lead than it originally was.  Should the pins be replaced with bolts?  Should the pins be replace with new pins? (God only knows how you could get the broken pin out of its original placement) Should the route become a top rope problem for everyone except those who are comfortable with soloing?

Last year I also lead Holy Cow 5.8 at Rattlesnake.  While I am sure there are pin free variations, I took a direct line that involved clipping 4 pins in a row, non of which looked like they would have held a fall.  Now the climb was only 5.8, but it was most definitely way more perilous that it would have been when the pins were first placed?

I personally, have no difficulty with people replacing old pins with bolts if there is no other viable protection and the original route was safer than it is today because of the deterioration of the old pins.  If a route was a statement when it was first put up, why do we need to one-up the statement by climbing it in a more dangerous state.  I do not feel like more of a hero when I avoid death by not falling on a pin that wouldn’t have saved my life if I had fallen on it.  I do, however, admire those who trad climb sport routes that have adequate gear to be climbed without the bolts.

I do not like the idea of replacing pins with pins.  If the community deems it totally unsavoury to replace pins with new bolts, then I think we should at least be allowed to replace the old pins with new pins.  However, because replacing pins deteriorates the rock, in my opinion we should avoid this option.  Would anyone have minded if someone had replaced the pins on The Joke?

I also do not like the idea of adding bolts to old routes to make them safer.  Take Iguanadon (5.10d) at Mt. Nemo.  This is a bold trad lead that has a heady runout at the top.  Bolting this classic would be like putting disc brakes on a 1967 SII Landrover.  It would make it safer, but it would also destroy so much of its original character.

I have not been on The Joke, but if it was in fact bolted to make it safer, than a travesty has occurred.  If however, the route is closer in safety to its original state, then leave it be.  I don’t think anyone would disagree with replacing rusty old bolts (or 1/4 bolts for that matter) with new ones.  Why is it any different with Pitons?  If the route was bolted because some bored ACC members were simply looking for a new route to climb, then, once again, a travesty has occurred.

I some respects, there is value in the fact that it was The Joke that was bolted.  First of all, it brings the whole should pins be replaced with bolts issue to the surface as it is a classic route, and secondly, now all the bold Ontario climbers have a new project to spray about - I climbed the Joke bolt free!!!  I will definitely buy you a beer if you do…

Geeeez, you sport climbers are seriously sensitive! Hey Sliver, I’m sorry if you think my delivery doesn’t help you to understand what it is that makes trad climbing trad climbing - all I’m trying to do is deliver the facts of the particular route in question and perhaps a bit of background to those that are uninitiated in the realm of traditional climbing.
I have no ‘bias’ - I simply have respect for established lines and the way that they were put up and climbed.  There is nothing elitist in that.  It is all about respect.  The fact of the matter is that adding bolts to an already established climb that protects well with modern gear is wrong.  The pins are a non factor to making a safe ascent.  There is plenty of gear on the route - it’s been climbed safely and repeatedly in it’s original state for 45+ years.  I really don’t understand what is elitist and biased about leaving good enough alone and letting those that seek adventure and a unique experience to pursue this end.  The addition of the bolts tarnishes and alters the climb.  It is about respecting tradition and the style of climbing that is unique to the cliff.  Furthermore - it is absurdly hypocritical for a access committee to be involved in this retrobolting debauchery on a cliff that has a longstanding bolting ban which has been negotiated by said committee!  They’re breaking their own rules in the pursuit of self interest.  It is a travesty and I’m simply trying to relate the facts so that people can understand the situation.
Look - I am definately adament about upholding some degree of traditional value to our sport, otherwise things get watered down and next thing you know there some old farts bolting trad climbs cause they’ve lost their nerve and feel entitled to getting up said route by whatever means necessary.  Then the gorps coming out of the gym with little or no background knowledge (or even interest for that matter) see this as the way it is and the way it should be.

As for bias, I have none.  I really dig trad climbing.  I also really enjoy sport climbing and bouldering.  I have the same respect for the latter two as the former.  That’s why just because I can’t send problem x or I fail yet again on my proj. - I go home and train harder in hopes that one day I can come back and send.  I don’t chip the rock down to my level - I step up to it and if it beats me down again (which it usually does) so be it.  Just walk away, leave it alone, come back again one day when you’re up to task.  Does that help you to relate?  Taming runouts with bolts on established traditional climbs is akin to making that edge at the crux just a little bit bigger - you’re fucking with the way things are and altering the experience for others.
Look, I will apologize to anyone who is offended by my tone - I am just passionate about this particular discusion and I have a first hand affinity with the route in question.  Comments about sipping lattes and cell phones are just colour comentary - lighten up!  I drink lattes by the gallon and regularly run over my minutes on that piece of necessary evil that is my cell phone.
Also, running a nuclear power plant is stressful… this is my outlet.  Gotta go - meltdown in Sector C - damn you Simpson!