Dear buddysnacker,

you wrote:

‘First of all Trad Daddy, don’t go ripping out bolts just to prove a point and be a prick.’

I am not trying to prove a point - just right a wrong.

‘Bolts have been added, and we don’t need to further bastardize the cliff.’

Umm - the addition of the bolts is what bastardized the cliff - I am planning to remove them in order to de-bastardize the cliff

‘Having said that, should you get a little crowbar happy, I would follow these considerations:
-Belays: if the belays are not safe without the bolts, leave them in place. If they are safe, I don’t think the Joke will ever become a trade route, so while you could rip them, I say leave them in place.’

The belays are safe without bolts.  Good chance it won’t become a trade route - unless it is left in it’s current clip and go state.

‘-Trees: I agree, protect the tree and leave the bolt.
-Piton Scars: if the bolts were placed beside valid piton scars where pitons previously protected that section, leave the bolts in place. As I discussed in my earlier post, I think in some situations it is ok to replace a piton with a bolt, especially in a situation where the piton validly protected that section.’

There are good stopper/ nut placements in the vicinity of the old pins.  Never was a section of this climb ‘dependant’ on any of the old pins.

‘-Needless bolts: if there are bolts that were added to make the climb safer than it was on its original ascent and do not correspond to valid piton scars…I wouldn’t stop you from ripping them out.’

Gee - thanks for the green light!  I will be sure to follow your rules as closely as possible…

‘Finally, if you are going to do any modification work on the climb Trad Daddy, you had better sack up and climb the sucker. If not, you are simply being a righteous prick and a coward.’

Thanks - I have in fact ’sacked up and climbed the sucker’.  I think you are the one that is being righteous and assumptive.  As I’ve mentioned in many previous posts (I have repeated myself on points numerous times for those of thick head), my relationship to this route is based on first hand experience having climbed the route using a standard rack and protecting the climb the whole way up.  Don’t get me wrong - the gear is tricky and the climbing is at times spicy; both of which contribute to what makes the route enjoyable and rewarding to climb.  I would encourage you to give it a go next summer when the climb is returned to its original state.

‘Instead, why not focus on the injustices suffered by women’s breasts. They are needlessly held captive by an oppressive society and a supportive cup…why don’t you go out instead and burn a bra!!!’

I believe in a woman’s right to choose…

If I grew a vagina, I would quit climbing and diddle myself all day long…

First of all let me correct JON 12/11/2007. I am not in my eighties, although I hope to get there some day while still climbing. I do live in Ontario and not in Alberta and, as said, still climb on local cliffs, even recently at Bon Echo, but more importantly on the real stuff, in the mountains. However, what I real resent is his denigrating remark “what do these guys know”? This is an arrogant dismissal without foundation.

What is there to know about this trivial fight about a couple of bolts by a bunch of, mostly self-righteous, rock jocks? Is it the climb? The pros or cons of bolt use? The preservation of climbs in their original state? At least I have probably done the climb more often than anyone else; yes, I am probably also guilty of having placed the first bolt on a cliff in Ontario; and finally I do not much care, if somebody places a bolt on any of the garden variety climbs like the Joke to make it safer.

While I am at it let me be as prolix as TRAD DADDY.

A couple of facts:

1. On the first few repeats of the climb (and I was on all of them) a knife blade piton was placed in the so-called letter box of the traverse as well as on the slab on the third pitch. How good they were is questionable, but they made us fell better anyway. We always removed them because they were expensive and we hardly had any.
2. John Turner never fell off on any of the cruxes of the climb as it is done these days. He climbed left of the big tree to the top (the Punchline goes right of the tree). He fell from this particularly difficult pitch, so far unrepeated, and broke his ankle. Urs Kallen and I were the first to climb to the end of the ramp and from there to the top.

Considerations:

1. It would be utterly ridiculous to get killed or seriously maimed on a climb like the Joke because of inadequate protection. The fact that so many dozens have done the climb (a statement I doubt) does not prove that it is “safe” or has been done “safely”. It just means that nobody fell off and got hurt. Quite clearly the climb cannot be protected adequately, if it has an R rating. Get killed where it counts, in the mountains where you find more of the “original state”.
2. To have climbing stopped at Bon Echo because of a fatality, a real possibility, would indeed be a tragedy. Note that Milton at one time considered closing Rattlesnake after a death. The park authorities can do this any time.
3. If you like to climb the route “in its original state”, then don’t clip the bolts, but don’t brag about it afterwards either. And if you really wish to go original and add an extra dimension, do it with heavy mountaineering boots and the grotty equipment we had in those days. Original state, my foot.
4. Removing the bolts will leave a nasty scar that I would find aesthetically repulsive. I like shiny bolts. Equally problematic are repeated piton placements and removals. Eventually it may be impossible to place a piton at all in addition to major scaring. Anyone done Serenity Crack in Yosemite. I still used crack tacks.
5. If you really want to do trad routes go out west or to Europe and pick a nice 1000 metre face or ridge, modestly graded at 5.8 and do it with a pack, maybe bivi gear, mountaineering boots and one foot on rock and the other on snow or ice and stop polishing the rock in Ontario (you are changing its original state).
6. While I personally would not have placed the two critical bolts, which have everyone in a huff, I would be very sad indeed and irritated should somebody chop them. Keep that in mind TRAD DADDY. Remember, Robbins, after he matured, regretted chopping Harding’s bolts on The Wall of Early Morning Light.
7. Remember also the good deed that this enterprise produced. It is my understanding that much of the poison ivy on the climb has been removed. A major hazard albeit not deadly.

Finally, let me just say that some of you have way too much time at hand. I am particularly concerned about TRAD DADDY, who is apparently looking after the safety of a nuclear installation. I hope he is not writing these missives while he should be watching dials. Remember Chernobyl!

The whole thing is a tempest in a tea pot. Get out and train so you can brag about having sent something or other, just not another blog.

Finally let me hope that the perpetrators of this “heinous crime” have sense enough to stay away from this site, which I shall do after this semaphore. It would lead nowhere.

Helmut Microys.

If Helmut doesn’t come back to the forum at least he left a lot to think about.

I feel the same way about knifeblades that he does:

How good they were is questionable, but they made us fell better anyway.

It is curious that Helmut appears to dismiss this bolting debate as trivial, and Ontario climbing as garden variety, yet says that removing a bolt there would offend his esthetic sense. And he implies that John Turner breaking his ankle at Bon Echo was utterly ridiculous. But overall I admire his unsentimental look at the past and his reminder of the bigger picture.

Twice recently I’ve gone to listen to the guys climbing 8000 metre peaks in winter (thanks, Vancouver International Mountain Film Festival). I’ll stay in the teapot.

Thanks Helmut. It is gratifying to know that you wouldn’t have placed the bolts.

Here are my thoughts on your other considerations.

If trying the route in spite of injury is ridiculous, where does that leave Turner?

The original state ascent can naver be repeated precisely because standards of climbing and gear quality have improved so much since the days of heavy metal. Gear and standards have rendered this retrobolting unnecessary.

WOEML was an independant new route Robbins saw the nobility of after chopping it. If these guys had bolted their own route, we wouldn’t be discussing this. WOEML wasn’t one of the retrobolt jobs Robbins never regretted chopping.

More bolts don’t equal more safety. especially on trad routes in Ontario. There are examples of accidents that happened because people were shooting for nearby bolts instead of working out their own gear.

I like bolts too, I like them a lot. Like you, I wouldn’t have added them to kill the boldness of the Joke.

A good chopping job leaves no scar.

Europe is a bad example of leaving routes in their original state. Look at the bolts pins and fixed ropes on every route on the Eiger.

Note to Trad Daddy: it’s Helmut,(ancient norse for devil-dog) not Helmet.